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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have been on to many forums over the years where the above topic was deemed either (#1)"not important enough" or (#2)"much to political" for the following respective reasons:

(#1) There has never been (to the delight of single trackers; full-size 4x4ers and 'not on my land' state DNRs) any attempt to organize SxSers in any manner whatsoever politically. In Michigan, this stems from both atvers and SxSers alike either shunning the concept of 'community' all together beyond the non-commital forum experience...or... very simply taking every enthusiast who ever dreamed of making a difference in our trail system/reputation; both behind closed doors and putting an effective gag in their mouth (search for any upcoming policy or orv 'leader' related to the largest maintained trail system in the country and please prove me wrong).

(#2) There has never been a web site to date willing to allow discussion related to exactly what our 'non-profit' off-road leaders are doing on a daily basis for the sport. If you are not 100% on board with every single issue or 'edict' that comes from upon high (AMA;BRC;NOHVCC. etc.) or from their lock-step talking heads locally (our 'petty' issues being traditionally subserviant to everything west of the Mississipi)...then expect to be called every name in the book and your site administrator admonished for ever dare 'allowing' a poster to educate others as to exactly why all offroad leadership policy making is done without a searchable database.(In Michigan, we were told years ago that even our policy leader's names were not available).

We're talking 'multi-use trails'....and 'safety'...and (the last time I checked) purely noble goals such as 'sustainable trail legacies' here, folks...not the end of the free world as we know it. Yet one can guarantee that none of these goals will ever be accomplished if we continue to allow off-road non-profit leadership to disparage each and every SxSer who very simply asks...why are we all not under one tent and fighting for the same thing?

I can no longer post on the prcforum (questioned the Rzr's frame integrity when they first came out) and am probably not long for here...but let's quit being the laughingstock of the offroad community when it comes to making a difference/getting involved (any more then 'get-togethers') in the sport.

Your children's opportunity to experience the same pleasures that you do today...depends on it.
 

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John,

I find your information interesting. It would only seem logical that people who enjoy the outdoors, would be more than willing to cooperate on gaining, developing, and keeping in touch with whats happening politically with Multi-use Trails.

I believe Michigans organizations MI-TRALE has done a pretty good job creating and developing miles and miles of Multi-use trailes.

However, I also know that in other states there are several "land-Grabbing" environmentalists that want nothing to do with Motorized vehicle access on the trails.

Welcome to SSW
 

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SXS Welcome to the SSW,i guess it will be up to you if you want to stay with us,the main thing we strive is a family friendly atmosphere and i would think the PRC FORUM being 11,000 strong is proof of that,atleast thats why i am a PRC MEMBER,Anyhow Welcome and glad to have ya.
 

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John, Welcome to the SSW, I read over your post a couple time, I guess I just don't see the point, Every state that I can think of has a group of ATV/Offroaders working the political issues in the capital opening it up for more trails to be open. Didn't Michigan recently start allowing UTVs to be legal to get on the road? Where I'm from in Texas a group of ATVs finally got it where ATVs can travel on State Owned land legally. Currently I live in Virginia there is a group that currently working in to get a trail system will open up most of the counties in SW Virginia. I can continue, but my point is I believe several of our members are also involved with these group, in their home state. I personally have been involved in Texas and also here in Virginia.


Again I sorry if I missed the point of your thread.
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
slane01 said:
John,

I find your information interesting. It would only seem logical that people who enjoy the outdoors, would be more than willing to cooperate on gaining, developing, and keeping in touch with whats happening politically with Multi-use Trails.

I believe Michigans organizations MI-TRALE has done a pretty good job creating and developing miles and miles of Multi-use trailes.

However, I also know that in other states there are several "land-Grabbing" environmentalists that want nothing to do with Motorized vehicle access on the trails.

Welcome to SSW
I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of Mi-Trale (former member); as they have been 'allowed' to partner with groups such as the WATVA (Wisconsin) and even work closely with the National Forest Service in the western U.P. (who have always been decent people to me in every respect). Their group has also managed (for the most part) to stay clear of the DNR/AMA/Full-sizer 'love triangle' that has effectively taken the public's business behind closed doors for many decades now (I'd include atv leadership in said tryst...yet they've been such a mess for so long now that I'm not sure it's even fair to mention them).
Mi-Trale has got things done; continues to do so and are a shining example of how riders can actually teach their children how to steward a resource for mult-use access properly (what a concept...see Michigan snowmobilers as well).

As to the environmentalists in the west; I have a hard time supporting off-road leadership in that area (from my own personal experience) who support whatever leaders here do locally regardless of the ridiculousness.
Both leadership groups flat out refuse (and you witness the exact same thing in 'non-profits' all over this country; pick the cause) to organize under one tent based upon multi-use trails...as opposed to appealing to the lowest common denominators in their organizations out to exclude (even hate) any rider with a different machine than theirs. The DNR truly love these guys; as they keep more people from recreating on 'their' land not by employing an army of greenies at every turn...but by designating more and more trails as 'single use' while taking credit for expanding 'multi-use' trails at the same time.
If the DNR (or even left leaning access nazis) can 'divide and conquer' us in regards to cross-sport unity....because they know darn well that every gray-haired off-road leader out there will never give up his non-profit 'gig' and effectively keep down the total number of machines in the woods...what do they need an army of tree huggers for?
Why did (most) every state but Michigan expand their multi-use trails?
Why are the trails a mess and there are even lesss people on them despite an explosion of machines...at the largest maintained system in the nation?

Again, I went up against these behind-the-curtain guys for over 10 years.
Basically, it came down to individuals and families who liked to talk a lot about how riding was so 'good for them'...yet who lacked the kahunas (or the thought of simply modeling/passing down their kahunas) to stand up for simple public disclosure or mutual access to the land that we all are (supposedly) stewards for.

Sorry to go so long... :wink:
 

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Any discussion that will help our community and our cause is welcome as long as it remains civil and does not create problems here. All that we ask is that all subjects be approached in a family friendly manner.
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Pops said:
John, Welcome to the SSW, I read over your post a couple time, I guess I just don't see the point, Every state that I can think of has a group of ATV/Offroaders working the political issues in the capital opening it up for more trails to be open. Didn't Michigan recently start allowing UTVs to be legal to get on the road? Where I'm from in Texas a group of ATVs finally got it where ATVs can travel on State Owned land legally. Currently I live in Virginia there is a group that currently working in to get a trail system will open up most of the counties in SW Virginia. I can continue, but my point is I believe several of our members are also involved with these group, in their home state. I personally have been involved in Texas and also here in Virginia.


Again I sorry if I missed the point of your thread.
What I'm trying to get across is that if you don't have a place to discuss land or political issues in a forum; it is highly unlikely that those issues will ever be discussed. My experience here in Michigan might not compare to any other state in the nation (we're so screwed up that one could hardly believe it ever would); yet it might be helpful to compare notes if some SxSer ever felt that our sport (along with the atvers) just happened to be the largest group of recreational riders in the country...and deserved more of a voice instead of being ''talked down to by every gray-haired non-profit leader or employee protecting his little tax write-off or paycheck.

I guess that I'm just sick of apathy; a long history of unwillingness to take a stand on even safety-related matters in the sport and even the simple lack of 'giving back' to people when riders get together.

The Tea Party is a great example.

These 'stand for nothing' do-gooders tend to brag all the time about how they don't publicly support anybody and want less government. At the same time; the leaders all set themselves up as 501c3 non-profits (couldn't support anybody if they wanted to)....and make excuses for doing so centered around their member's demand that they get something back from the government...for contributing!

It's the same thing with most off-roaders.

"Give me a t-shirt; a hot dog and a good time...and by gosh keep that 'political stuff' out of my forum...we're here to trade info (maybe make some money) and have a good time! (besides, I don't want my kid asking any questions as to why we never got 'involved')."

Politics are the driving force behind sustainable trail systems for your kids and their kids.

And if we don't start educating/giving those kids a chance to run the show pretty soon...they'll care even less than they do now when your money quits supporting their exposure to the sport in the first place.

Thanks for the reply and your thoughts,

John
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
carnivore said:
Any discussion that will help our community and our cause is welcome as long as it remains civil and does not create problems here. All that we ask is that all subjects be approached in a family friendly manner.
Appreciated.

My only question would be the following:

What are the chances of a thread such as this actually helping anyone become educated as to the issues that this sport faces...if there is not a category for such information on the forum?

As mentioned earlier; any question for the AMA; BRC; NOHVCC; etc. that I've ever brought forward on-line...has instantly triggered a terse email to a site administrator from any one of said organizations.

Is SxSWorld prepared to create a category and allow discussions relating to organizations that 'run the show' for all of us...because the last time I checked....there aren't a lot of offroad forums in this country who allow 'educating' to be done about any of the organizations asking for our offroad dollars both today and in the past.
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
foxcrew6 said:
SXS Welcome to the SSW,i guess it will be up to you if you want to stay with us,the main thing we strive is a family friendly atmosphere and i would think the PRC FORUM being 11,000 strong is proof of that,atleast thats why i am a PRC MEMBER,Anyhow Welcome and glad to have ya.
Thank you, John...I will do my best to stick to the facts as I know them and keep it civil...yet I have a little different perspective after shining the light of day on many of these guys over the years that's a little tough to hide. :wink:
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I just wanted to thank SxSWorld for moving this post to its own Topic Heading.

The vast majority of offroad forums on the web (believe it or not) either shoot the messenger or shut down the entire discussion whenever the big 'non-profits' representing us ever have the light of day shown upon them.

Our kids need to be shown that basic access issues can be discussed out here in the open (for their own benefit) and that offroad leadership should be forced to take a public stand on the very issues which affect all of us (instead of low hanging fruit picking and choosing; as our politicians do).

I hope that SxSWorld members take advantage of this opportunity.
 

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John (SxS), Welcome to the SSW. With SSW being a Family Oriented site – all that we ask is that ALL discussions be kept in a context that respects that philosophy, as long as that’s adhered to there will be no problems/issues, and, if done correctly, I think a lot of good could possibly become of this. Looking forward to some constructive and informative discussions here in the future.
 

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land use issues can be a hot topic, we over at BN have a section that members post links and news about areas that are being targeted for closure and contact info for people to get involved in keeping the riding areas open.

If done correctly a land use section can be valuable information

http://buggynews.com/land-use-issues.html
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
RZRRich said:
John (SxS), Welcome to the SSW. With SSW being a Family Oriented site – all that we ask is that ALL discussions be kept in a context that respects that philosophy, as long as that’s adhered to there will be no problems/issues, and, if done correctly, I think a lot of good could possibly become of this. Looking forward to some constructive and informative discussions here in the future.
Thanks, Rich.

With so many folks here from Michigan and my stepping away from Michigan Orv politics pretty much coinciding with the formation of PRCForums...I am anxious to be brought up to speed by members here regarding SxS issues at the largest maintained trail system in the country.
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
bige said:
land use issues can be a hot topic, we over at BN have a section that members post links and news about areas that are being targeted for closure and contact info for people to get involved in keeping the riding areas open.

If done correctly a land use section can be valuable information

http://buggynews.com/land-use-issues.html
Thanks for the link; great source of info for the sport.

From my experience, "done correctly" simply involves everyone being given the right to speak their peace (if factual)...with members pushing for both public stances from leadership on the issues at hand without undo interference from the national orgs. on the (site) administrative side.

These "let's write off everything that we do" non-profit types have a lot at stake not directly connected with what's good for the sport...and they certainly aren't shy about discrediting anybody with an opinion different than theirs or using others to make certain that said views are stifled. :wink:
 

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yes there can be alot of bull thrown around. if kept to the facts and where to go to get involved its not to bad
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
bige said:
yes there can be alot of bull thrown around. if kept to the facts and where to go to get involved its not to bad
I would have to agree that being pointed in the right direction is key; as there has been a lot of less than factual 'bull' thrown around in seemingly the right places over the years...and (unfortunately) not a lot of people being encouraged to even get involved in the first place.

Our sport is very frankly the laughingstock of most enthusiasts over 50 who figured out what 'stewardship'' was all about back in the 60's...fought/put in their time to establish a reputation...and who (eventually) managed to look their grandkids in the eye with a legacy in hand.

The fact that nobody will even speak of this reality on the forums (let alone at their get-togethers) is, in my opinion, a pretty sad commentary on our generation. :?
 

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SxS said:
bige said:
yes there can be alot of bull thrown around. if kept to the facts and where to go to get involved its not to bad
I would have to agree that being pointed in the right direction is key; as there has been a lot of less than factual 'bull' thrown around in seemingly the right places over the years...and (unfortunately) not a lot of people being encouraged to even get involved in the first place.

Our sport is very frankly the laughingstock of most enthusiasts over 50 who figured out what 'stewardship'' was all about back in the 60's...fought/put in their time to establish a reputation...and who (eventually) managed to look their grandkids in the eye with a legacy in hand.

The fact that nobody will even speak of this reality on the forums (let alone at their get-togethers) is, in my opinion, a pretty sad commentary on our generation. :?
I think Laughingstock may not be accurate, but these issues are a concern. There may be some that don't approve of our sport, or how we do it, but that will always be the case.
Discussing these concerns is a good thing and should be our focus, as long as its done in a manner that will be productive. We are not tied to any organizations or off road groups, so any discussions should really focus on how members can handle these issues as individuals.
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Carnivore said:

"I think Laughingstock may not be accurate, but these issues are a concern. There may be some that don't approve of our sport, or how we do it, but that will always be the case.
Discussing these concerns is a good thing and should be our focus, as long as its done in a manner that will be productive. We are not tied to any organizations or off road groups, so any discussions should really focus on how members can handle these issues as individuals."


I think that you might have possibly missed my point in regards to who is laughing at who...and why these people are not outside our sport...but long standing members of it.

Earlier, I made a statement as to why becomming involved politically within this sport was so important (for our children's sake)...and nobody seemed to disagree. I also asked (as I have been away for a few years) if anybody could bring me up to speed as to who exactly was the #1 individual representing our interests (politically) since both atving and side-by-siding became the largest category in the nation many years ago...with no response.

So when you (or even the side-by-side quote/unquote "community" comment as follows:

"...We are not tied to any organizations or off road groups, so any discussions should really focus on how members can handle these issues as individuals..."

...my "laughingstock" reference is pretty much right on the money in terms of all of the organized 2 or 4 wheeled enthusiasts to ever come before us...volunteers who (very frankly) busted out the majority of the offroad trails or riding areas that we continue to enjoy today (especially in Michigan).

Side-by-siders may choose to ignore this section of the forum or claim (as you apparently do) that extremely critical issues pertaining to the legacy of this sport be handled by individuals and not forum-supported individuals, organizations or offroad groups...yet I would offer that they do so at their children and grandchildren's expense...which is why I made the "sad commentary on our generation" observation also.

Just my $.02...yet it's akin to the mandatory helmet or "throw your safety nets on the floor/get rid of them" issues...you either model for your kids; encourage others to do so and become (publicly) involved in driving down these youth injury/mortality rates...or you allow 'dead' forum categories such as "Access" and "Safety" to be a shining example to those who became before us that indeed we don't give a rip about critical issues that they spent a good part of their lives championing.
 

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Actually, I wasn't suggesting these individuals tackle the issues, I was saying its up to the individuals to form their own opinion and join whatever group they deem as the most effective. It good to educate members here on those groups, and the issues, but we won't be forming one of those political groups here.
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
carnivore said:
Actually, I wasn't suggesting these individuals tackle the issues, I was saying its up to the individuals to form their own opinion and join whatever group they deem as the most effective. It good to educate members here on those groups, and the issues, but we won't be forming one of those political groups here.
(carnivore):
"...We are not tied to any organizations or off road groups, so any discussions should really focus on how members can handle these issues as individuals..."

When I was investigating exactly why the largest segment of the offroading public never handled these issues either individually or tied to a (transparent) offroad group; it seemed that 'neutrality' in their #1 form of communication (forums)...was the #1 difference in comparison to every other (100% political) offroad group that had ever come before them (and who, coincidentily, had voluntarily bulit/maintained the majority of the systems that we enjoy today).

"Neutrality" may have built a lot of forums...but it has also (without question) been directly responsible for a lack of simple role modeling and zero tolerance on many issues that forum members tend to ignore...if only for the simple reason that members dare not take a stand on said topic 'on-line'....period.(let alone face-to-face at their state capital; whether their 'buddies' on-line are right there arguing the opposite or not).

I think that present day conservatives understand this concept more than most.

They will argue even with their "tea party" counterparts that forming a 501c3 and then being forced to act 'non-politically' (no backing of candidates allowed; effectively neutering their numbers related to power/change) follows the same "let the individual decide" path that has historically gotten no segment of the population anywhere...and pretty much landed this country in the mess that it is in now for lack of education on even the most basic of subject matter.
(see the public's insistence previously that everybody get a loan...and even their further demand today that many of those loans not be payed back in full; which is akin to bringing up exactly why the automakers failed here in Michigan...you're not supposed to talk about it!). :roll:

My question above (still unanswered) mirrored your assertion also:

Who is the group (presently) deemed most effective in side-by-sider's eyes for the sake of their children/grandchildren and 60" (or larger) issues..and why have you joined them as opposed to supporting someone else?
 
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